SPEAKER01: Welcome back to the Self Made A Single podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Rose. You may have heard Lynn just say how chilly it is in LA. She's probably lying compared to how it is in London. But let me introduce you to her. Anyway, we're going to be talking about something a little bit more exciting than weather today. We are going to be talking about going big in every single way. Now, I bet you're thinking, OK, with what angle? Like, give me a little bit more. Well, Lynn is a CEO and founder of the Consumer Insights and Future Trends Consultancy, ShineScout, and I cannot wait for her to talk so much more about branding and marketing and what it is that she does to bring so much magic to businesses.

SPEAKER00: Welcome, Lynn. Lovely to be here. Very excited.

SPEAKER_01: Lovely to have you. So I told you already that I've been stalking you, so this shouldn't be a surprise, but someone said everybody has a story. Everybody. So and obviously that was you. So tell us about yours and tell us about how that affected your business and how it helped it grow.

SPEAKER_00: Yes. So my story begins with the word why. So I've always been curious about why, why people do the things that they do. And what's interesting is marketing tends to be consumed with what, what is it that people are doing, right? When you look at Google trends analysis, it's what people have done or what people are going to do, right? I came up through advertising ad agency work out of Madison Avenue, New York. Yeah, where all the fabulous people are. And I learned so much and it was so exciting, but I kept, in the back of my mind, I kept thinking, why are we so focused on the what? Why are we so focused on the what? And there was a moment We were doing some consumer work for Folgers Coffee and taking us way back. You know, the best part of waking up is Folgers in your cup. We were doing some consumer work and the moderator asked this woman to describe her daily coffee routine. Right. And she's like, oh, you know, it's a styrofoam cup of like hot water that someone stirred with a brown crayon. Like it is nothing special. And then it was like, well, tell me about your weekend coffee. And she's like, oh my gosh, I'm sitting on the dock and I have my favorite like fuzzy robe on and the birds are chirping and I have my favorite, you know, porcelain mug. And I thought at no point has this woman described coffee. Hmm. Interesting. She's invited us into her world. And that was a big switch going on for me. And I made it my business from that point forward in the advertising work that I did. And then as a studio executive, I was, um, head of marketing for Paramount pictures, television for a number of years to always sort of get to what is that human insight? What is that human experience? What is the, why, what are we seeking emotionally? that drives our functional decisions. And that's become really the platform for all the work that I do.

SPEAKER_01: I love that. And it just speaks so true to the kind of advertising we're seeing nowadays as well. A lot of advert, or I should say advert commercials, American speak, with commercials, you see, I see a lot of like sensualness, for example, when it comes to bath soaps or it comes to bedding and you're like, oh, okay you know I see where they're going there they're leading with the sensation rather than oh here's a packet of cotton bed sheets you know people want to know how they're going to feel and and what that's going to do for them I really like that.

SPEAKER_00: Particularly post-pandemic where we were in such a state of sensory deprivation and so that desire that hunger to really dive into all of our senses. What is that going to smell like? What am I going to feel like? What am I going to hear? When you can really tap into the full sensuality of the human experience, you're headed in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01: I love that. Yes, I can see why that would be a huger thing after the pandemic, because we didn't have much, right? And almost our senses sharpened. I don't know about yourself, but I know, for example, I got really into cooking, like way more than I did before. I really appreciated things a lot more. So that definitely makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: Think about the trends that we started to see. I mean, not only were we dressing ourselves in the warm and the cozies, right? Boucle, that type of furniture that looks like little baby sheep. Boucle became wildly popular because, again, we were so sensory deprived that it was almost like everything had to be extra. Everything that we were bringing into our homes had to be extra. Extra spicy, extra soft, Music had to be extra emotional. You know, look at Taylor Swift and her two drops during the pandemic. Excellent woman, by the way. Right. Oh, my God. They were amazing. Thank you. Thank you, Taylor. But it was the kind of music that made you weep and then weep again because, again, we were so hungry to lean into feelings that didn't have an outlet.

SPEAKER_01: Wow. I really love that. Okay, so that's a key ingredient, sensation. Let's call it sensation. Let's call it like connecting with the senses. What other key ingredients would you say are really, really necessary? And you've seen brands shift more towards post-pandemic, now that we're really post-pandemic, it's been a couple of years.

SPEAKER_00: Are we really post-pandemic? Well…

SPEAKER_01: For the most part, I hope, I hope, I hope. I'm done. I just, I cannot.

SPEAKER_00: No more PCI. Wait, I'm with you 100%. So I think one of the things that's been fascinating, when you look at the pandemic, what the pandemic did is, I don't believe the pandemic necessarily gave birth to its own trends, its own sort of like economy or biome, but what it did, and what I think is fascinating, is it sort of took everything and we hyper looped right so things that that were on the cusp things that were starting to shift and change things that we were on a five to 10 year trajectory all of a sudden happened in 18 months right so you know, think about online shopping, for example. DDC had been certainly shifting, we were into more of a DDC economy, right? But we were talking 20%, 30%, maybe 40%. You know, by the end of the pandemic, every 75-year-old knew how to use Instacart. Right? So we took on skills and learned abilities and became comfortable with something that literally everyone was hand-raising ahead of time saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You know, I can't have someone else pick out my produce. You know, cut to six months later, it's like, please, please pick out my produce. Right? So we had a crash course in assuming trends that really would have taken so much longer to roll out. Online education. Right. Yes. That was something that you know had, we've been sitting with and playing with. And granted, we're still seeing you know very high enrollment for classic you know for your education here in the United States, but when you look at it globally. you see almost every single company, HR departments, who's in charge of online education switch to, out of necessity, switch to some sort of online learning, a lot of linked programs, for example, right? They're not going to transition back. Right. And it works, right? Exactly. Things like Masterclass, right? All of these programs that we were like, nice to have, maybe someday I'll do that. Once it became the only way, it's a door that we then went through. And once you go through anything and you get a positive result, you're like, okay, right? So we see this sort of hyper-looping into the future at a much more rapid pace. The metaverse, I personally believe the metaverse would have taken another 10 years to roll out, but all of a sudden, you know, we had, you know, the Bored Ape Yacht Club And we had, you know, Roblox take off as a means for kids to play and experiment and craft and grow, because it was the only outlet that we had. So one of the key trends that I've really been enjoying and that I had kind of put my money on before the pandemic is the idea of micro influencers, right? So no hate on Kim Kardashian, go Kim go. But what we started to see, and I believe it's sort of what most trends are, it's a sort of a collision course between sort of a universal desire and the rising of a specific cohort, right? So, MZ, who are now, you know, young adults, actually parents even, and this is a group that has demanded authenticity and transparency from the get-go. And why not? You know, they were recession-bait, they watched the world burn down, they watched their parents lose jobs, they might have had to have moved, They might have had to have given up their homes. I mean, these are kids who, between the ages of five, six, and seven, had to face some really harsh realities early, right? Wow. That's true. Here in the United States, then, we had the Parkland shootings. You had 9-11. You had Trump. I mean, you had all these really hard truths invade their childhood, invade their adolescence, right, in a way that makes them you know, a bit cynical and very clear-eyed. I call them critical optimists, right? Show me the money. Like, tell me what's really going on. Yes. They're not cynic in that they're like, everything's terrible and I'm a pessimist and the world is going to hell in a handbasket. Because they're young, they do believe that something better can happen, but they also believe that they're the ones who are in charge of it. So it takes us all the way back to this idea of micro influencers and authentic influencers. They want to hear from people they know. Whereas, you know, the millennial generation and the Gen Xers, they were like, oh, my God, a five star Amazon review. Yay. These guys are like, well, who are those people writing the reviews?

SPEAKER_01: Yes. Right. Exactly. They do ask a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_00: And who are like who? So I'm thank you for the five. I'm glad to see that there's a five star review. I'm whole please. I'm going to check with friends and family. I'm going to check with my tight inner circle of trust. Then I'll get back to you. Right. But it has to be vetted authentically. It has to be vetted through someone they know. So you see this rise of creators on YouTube. You see this rise of micro influencers because they're like, I want to believe that someone absolutely passionately is is an advocate for this or creator of this or believes in this in their own lives. And then maybe I'll invest my time or money. I can see that.

SPEAKER_01: That's been a very. So with that, though, how how much would you say, like big brands versus startup brands, how open are they to that new way of thinking? Because that is something different for a lot of people using a micro influencer to push something out, you know, and not just with that, but in general, you know, are bigger brands

SPEAKER_00: okay with going more creative because you would think so yes because they've got the money but maybe there's a reputational situation happening there so yeah talk us through all of that i think it's about proof points right so what i have found in my experience is it's a it's a lot of education right you're a startup brand you get it you're like okay i can't afford kim so not exactly yeah now i'm going to play there so let me reach out to my own group of core enthusiasts right let me reach out to people who've already discovered the product or love the product or let me build that community right and support them and so they in turn will support me right so that makes a lot of sense i think initially big brands are like That seems like a lot of work, right? And is that really true? Like, it seems like so much more sense to me to get that person that has 2 million followers. What I'm seeing is there is a shift to understanding, right? A drive to understanding that where we are, we being humans, consumers, however you want to describe it, We really wanna be on an authentic journey with other people, right? The path of human behavior right now is about, I really wanna understand where you are. I really wanna see that authentically. I really wanna know what's going on with you, right? And so there is this sort of shifting. I'm not saying they're letting go. I mean, there will certainly be a number of people running Super Bowl commercials, no doubt. But there's this idea that yes, we need to kind of shift our budget. and start to kind of slice it up in different ways. I mean, if you look at, I think it was two years ago, maybe three, I don't want to misquote myself here, but there was that moment in time where traditional television became a secondary resource, right? Brands like Procter & Gamble going, you know what, actually, we're going to spend more money digitally. yeah we are with traditional television that was a big shift that's a big moment in time so now that i'm in this camp how do i do that more effectively more efficiently and more authentically so i think we're seeing shifts and when you look at big brands like target who've started to understand that they're really just a house of individual brands that are appealing to lots of different people, then you have to speak to all those different people in a different way. So certainly you spend money in sort of like making sure you understand that we're a house of brands, but then you have to talk to people on those individual brand levels.

SPEAKER_01: Get you. And on a way that's not just here I am, I'm a business. It's let's talk in your language. Let's talk about what your fears are, what you love, what you enjoy.

SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you an example. Once upon a time, and I'll say six or seven years ago, our influencers themselves were siloed, right? So Rachel Ray is a cooking expert, and Tracy Anderson is the workout expert, and Joanna Gaines is the home interior expert, right? But how do we relate to those people now? We want to know about their lives. Right. So you can't just be like this siloed. I'm an expert here, but I'm not going to tell you anything about the rest of my life. We don't play that way. I know Joanna Gaines has five kids, and I know about her upbringing, and I know that she dealt with racism, and I know why she's really committed to Waco, because she sees a lot of poverty there, and she really wants to bring jobs to that arena. She's not just a beautiful woman on the face of a magazine. We were all fine with that 10 years ago, right? It was like, that's my fitness person, and that's the person who gives me cooking tips, and this is the person who tells me what paint color to choose. Now either you're all in or you're not. That's that authenticity and that's that transparency and we want relationships.

SPEAKER_01: Yes. Yeah, we don't. Yeah. It's not just about the sale. You know, that was going to be one of the questions I was going to ask, you know, how do you measure success? And it's it's not just the sale, right? It's it's a lot more other things. But, you know, I'll let you talk about that other than the metrics of how much people buy, what how else do businesses measure success once they've done their branding and marketing?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And so it used to be views, right. It's all about views and then it was like views and clicks. But what we're really measuring now is time in, right? If I click on, so Rachel, you have a website and you're selling coaching services, for example, how long am I spending, right? what's the depth and breadth of my experience with you and my relationship with you? And it's like, wow, Lynn spent eight minutes on our site, not 30 seconds. I could have clicked, I could have bought something, but I spent time. So that means you're actually delivering something to me. Today, I believe is comprised of two things. It's attention, and it's trust, right? And if you're going to deliver those two things to me, then I'm going to be interested in whatever you're doing down the road, right? formed a relationship with me, I trust you. Therefore, I'm going to give you attention, lots of it. And therefore at the end of a coaching session, I might go, you told me you were like really into cooking as a result of the pandemic. I'm like, well, what are you cooking? And you're like, oh my God, I got that any day pan. Do you love your any day pan? I'm like, no. And you're like, I have a code, honey. I'll give you a code. So I become, I trust you. I'm interested in your life. Therefore you have that many more spokes. Right. you conduct sales with me somewhere down the road, right? We'll go on that journey with you. But I really think it's about delivering content with sales being sort of a passport stamp on that content. Whatever you're sharing with me, you're asking for my attention. Therefore, it's about content. So I think we all became sort of sale junkies And then, of course, then we have to climb that whole, you know, wall again and again and again. But if what we do is we establish trust and you trade me value for my attention, you're going to take me on a much longer road and have the opportunity to exchange a lot more with me.

SPEAKER_01: I like that. I like that a lot. And I think, you know, as we were touching on before we hit record, There are times where that can work out really well, and there are times where it can't work out that well, or people misinterpret. I guess, you know, branding and marketing is all an art form. You know, I've never known a piece of art that everybody loved. You know, so, you know, I called it the branding and marketing elephant in the room. And, you know, we're talking about Balenciaga and their current campaign, which is, you know, causing a lot of uproar. So I would love to get your thoughts on that. And yeah, just tell us a little bit about what you think about it all. So there's a famous Amazon story.

SPEAKER_00: that if you go into any meeting at the Amazon headquarters, there's an empty chair at the table. And that empty chair represents the customer, right? So the concept there is that we're gonna do a quick round robin and always make sure that the voice of the customer is represented, right? Not just the cool creative people, not just the super smart marketing people, but let's circle it all the way back to the customer. One of the more popular functions of my own work is a service I created about three or four years ago that I call cultural spelunking. Spelunking meaning cave diving. What I started to do with teams of top, top, top senior engineers at Facebook and Instagram and at Twitter was I would take them out into the field, right? I would embed them in small towns in America and we would spend four to five days. And the reason we did that was because we're all so busy, Rachel, and we all run into our office and we've got a million things to do and we're, you know, we're rolling the peanut forward and we're not out. in the real world. We're not serving chicken pot pie at a potluck supper, right? We're not at a little league game. We're not at all of these beautiful, unique threads that make up the fabric of a much larger group of people, right? So until you can take a moment and remind yourself of how is the work that I'm doing supporting or in service to the current human journey, You might be off a little bit. I always say that my work is to take the current human journey, wherever that is, as a result of what's the demographics right now? What does Gen Z look like? What does that aging population look like? What's going on with the who, right? And then where are they going, right? And the work of a good brand is to intersect. But too often we're sort of running along in our lane and people are running along in their lane, right? So with something like a Balenciaga, or we were talking about Pepsi earlier, people get excited about an idea, but the important piece is how does that intersect with the authentic human journey that's happening right now? So that's a step I think we've gotten away from. And I think all the digital tools we have make us feel that we're in, in contact with, we're in connection and we're in conversation. How many surveys have you filled out in your life? Oh God, too many.

SPEAKER_01: And not enough prizes for them.

SPEAKER_00: Thank you. And at what point do you find yourself just like, let me just finish checking the box because I'm only doing this because I might get the $500, you know, gift card at the end of it or whatever the giveaway is that the fabulous prize package to the Maldives, you know, whatever that what that the incentive was. So you just start kind of checking the box, right? The answers that you're gonna put on that survey are probably very different than if you and I spent two days together. And I start to unpack who you are and what actually motivates you and what you're truly looking for in life. So when I can get to that truth and understand where you're trying to go, then I can take my brand's product services and try to knit that in service to your authentic journey. So that you feel seen, you feel heard. And you're like, oh my God, they get me. Yeah. So with Pepsi, with Balenciaga, I'm sure with Balenciaga, the idea was people like things that are provocative. Certainly if you're scanning any sort of social currency, you're like, oh, provocateurs win, right? Everyone was sex starved during the pandemic. So it's like, let me make it, you know, sexy. Let me make it edgy. People are going to sit up and take a look. And we're going to be the provocateurs. We're going to be cutting edge. At no point, I'm guessing, did someone go, is everyone cool with this? Not just people in the room, right? But even reaching out to any sort of consumer group. Yeah, some of the top beauty brands right now Estee Lauder Lancome, and and we're doing some pretty edgy stuff it's it's VC stuff. It's innovative stuff. It's incubation stuff. at every sort of major threshold, I do a quick round robin with a group of cutting edge scouts, you know, global scouts around the globe who are, you know, cool hip people, but I run it by them, right? Someone's like, oof, you know, either no girl, no, that is so tired. You might think that is not fresh or oof, that hits the wrong way, right? And again, it's not anyone's fault. We're moving fast. We're trying to put our finger in the wind and read where it's all going, but there's a third piece, and you really have to be in dialogue with human beings.

SPEAKER_01: I really love how you've answered this, because it does feel like that there was a huge disconnect there, which I think the creative directors apologized for, or was it the photographer?

SPEAKER_00: I can't remember. again well there was a bit of hot potato too like oh we didn't know the photographer went off okay at no point in anybody's experience did a photographer just shoot a bunch of things and then yeah yeah exactly exactly oh my gosh but you know for the most part you know when it's done well you've definitely shown us that it can be a beautiful experience and it doesn't have to be

SPEAKER_01: you know, this publicity nightmare which they're going through at the moment, it'll be interesting. And I don't mean to cut you off, Rachel.

SPEAKER_00: All I want to say is they did apologize, but they took quite a bit of time. I agree. You're kind of like, and I think what's important is what I love about Gen Z and where I also think where we are because of the pandemic, we have an ability to apologize and do better. But we have to own our mistakes. We all love someone who goes, oh, my God, like, what was I thinking? Right. Or, oh, wow, I didn't realize that that's how it came across. Tell me how I can do better. Right. Yeah. So I think I think we're all a bit tired of cancel culture. I am. Right. But let's own our mistakes and then let's do better.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. I definitely like that. And I think, you know, cancel culture is a really perfect segue into the B side of this episode, which is the… No, like the B side, you know, talking about dating a self made woman.

SPEAKER_00: So I think,

SPEAKER_01: Oh, what I hear is just the cancel culture when it comes to dating is crazy. Like, you know, if you're into internet dating, you're talking to someone and then boom. Well, where did this person go? They've just unmatched. And it's like, why is there so much ghosting? So I would love to speak to you about what your experiences is and and particularly, you know, because you're so busy and you're working with all these top brands. How do you how do you fit it in? How does it work for you?

SPEAKER_00: Well, unfortunately, That's the issue I have found and I own that, right, it's, I'm very busy, I travel a great deal for my work. And it's interesting, women are jugglers. And I'm not saying that men don't but I women tend to juggle a lot more. Female relationships, we have more, friendship is more important to us. I think we have a much higher rate of volunteering. So we really sort of put ourselves out to our community. If we have children, I have three, there's that aspect to it. And then we have work and travel. And what I find in dating is if you have a date or two, you get to the magical second date, There's a real desire on the part of men to immediately jump into a relationship like, oh, thank God. Right. Let's go. And for women, I think I think we're a bit more circumspect. It's like. this is gonna need to take a bit of time, right? And then again, I absolutely admit with my schedule, it's not like, great, we're gonna have dinner every Wednesday and Friday and then go hiking on Sunday. It's like, that's not possible. And I'm not saying at some point I wouldn't start to rearrange my schedule, but I have to get to a pretty, a degree of certainty. that I perhaps don't allow myself to get to or don't have time to get to. And I've heard this again and again from guys like, well, how are we supposed to build momentum? You know, now you're traveling on Thursday and you tell me you have like this volunteer thing you're doing all day Sunday and what about me? So yeah, so that's been a big challenging. The two things I find that come up are you don't have enough time and again, But the other thing I find that comes up that is specific to this conversation is I've literally had guys say to me, well, you don't need anything from me.

SPEAKER_01: Ooh. Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah. Exactly. Because I think mainly they see the success and they're like, so where do I fit in? What do we want me to do? And, you know, that's an interesting question. It's interesting how male psychology works that they need a role.

SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I've heard that before in exchange, like as if it's some sort of like exchange of goods. Right. And I can think of these two distinct times at the end of what I thought was a lovely day and having both guys look at me and go, well, I don't feel like you need anything from me. And I'm like, well, like what? I thought this was about like curiosity and interest and exploration, but they're like, if I can't be the person to provide you with a trip to Paris or provide you with like, then what's my value?

SPEAKER_01: I find that really interesting when that does come up in the conversations because it must come from somewhere, right? It must come from needing to needing a reason to be valued. Right. When it comes to those particular kind of men, because I feel there's definitely an existence of men that are like, I'm high value, you're high value. Cool. Let's paint the town red. let's collaborate, let's complement each other. And I don't I don't need you and you don't need me. But let's flow together and, you know, have cocktails on the beach somewhere beautiful. They would see as an advantage the fact that they don't have to take care of you. So, yeah, I think it speaks a lot to that kind of guy, because there I think there are that flavor and also the other flavor.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah. Yeah. And it's just it's it's so interesting because It's both times. It's funny. I just I am so remembering them both times. I just felt such kind of like shock to your point, right? Because it's like, well, when did need enter the picture? It's about want, right? That was fun. I want more of this energy, right? But I imagine it's confidence. And it's a bit of a power advantage, right? Like if someone, if I need you to show me Paris, I'll be like, oh my gosh, you showed me Paris, right? And he's the purveyor of that, right? So that gives him an advantage as opposed to being on equal footing might be a bit threatening if you're a guy used to being in control or being sort of the alpha male.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah it's interesting that you said the word alpha male, it's the first word that came into my head and I think with that flavour of guy I always get the sense that their sense of patriarchy is what kind of steers them that way, you know, I'm the man, I'm the head, I'm supposed to give you everything you need. So yes, no, I hear that. I hear that.

SPEAKER_00: And there's the other side, which a lot of my friends and I, we've had this discussion a million times, then you have, you know, what's behind door number two, which is guys who are not alpha and for much more understanding of our schedules and our lives and our busyness. then there's the issue of respect, right? It's like, what do you mean you're not working on a Saturday? Like, or what do you mean you're not going to hustle after that idea of yours?

SPEAKER_01: You're talking about them not being like the go-getters. They're more of a beater. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: I hear that. And I mean, believe me, and I've dated them too. Cause I'm like, you know, stop being so, you know, hyper-driven to have the person sort of match you step for step. But then I find myself either frustrated or losing respect for that individual. So it's tricky, right? So you have, like I said, door number one, door number two, I guess I'm looking for door number three. Meta, somewhere in between. Yeah, I like meta. Good one, yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_01: So Lynn, it's been a pleasure to have you. I wanted to give everyone a chance to connect with you. Let us know if there are any projects that are coming in the pipeline very soon. And yeah, just drop us where we can find you, your links, everything, Walsh Bank.

SPEAKER_00: Wonderful. Well, I think most exciting project I have going on right now is I'm writing a book. Finally! I'm very excited about it. People have asked me for years, they're like, you must have written books. And I'm like, I'll put you down on my pre-order list, but the book is coming out at the end of this year. I'm very excited. The title is Chasing Human, and I'm talking about all that I've learned, the people I've met, and the incredible stories that have been shared with me in my life on the road, and the lessons for individuals and business leaders from those stories, much as we were talking earlier, you know, how important it is to be in conversation with human beings. So the book will be coming out this fall, and you can check out my website, www.shinescout.com, or just follow me on LinkedIn and say hi.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and she's lovely. She's a Virgo, guys, so you'll be in good hands. We already worked that out. We are running the world. We do. You said us two and Beyonce. We're the new Destiny's Child.

SPEAKER_00: Yes.